Why Plato Sucks (especially for atheists).

By on April 3, 2013

“Christianity is Platonism for the people.” – Friedrich Nietzsche

In the course of fulfilling my duties as an underpaid slave to the university a teaching assistant, I’ve had the mixed blessing of reading and reflecting on Plato for two consecutive quarters these past few months. I say mixed because while this has afforded me an opportunity to understand Plato’s thought in more richly textured detail, it has served mostly to reinforce the position I already held on that most beloved of philosophers – which is, simply, that Plato blows.

I am not intimidated by your stone locks nor your piercing blank eyes, sir.

I am not intimidated by your stone locks nor your piercing blank eyes, sir.

Yes, I’m being hyperbolic. But allow me to make my case. I believe I can argue, with only moderate exaggeration, that any sincere atheist should have some serious misgivings about Mr. Plato – and this is simply because, as Nietzsche argued at length, Plato kind of invented Christianity. We must say “kind of,” of course, because Plato obviously never clearly articulated a concept even of a singular, all-powerful humanoid God, let alone anything as obtuse and ridiculous as a singular, all-powerful humanoid God which first creates imperfect beings in his image, then condemns them for acting on their nature and then creates a son to sacrifice for said imperfect beings who then somehow transforms himself into a sin sponge that sucks up all the ickiness in those poor beings simply by enduring some severe unpleasantness for a mere weekend.

But I digress – because here’s the thing. Plato may not have come up with the exact details of that ridiculousness, but he helped build the intellectual foundations absolutely essential to making the theological claims of Christianity thinkable at all. And in certain respects what he came up with, I dare say, rivals if not surpasses Christianity on the absurdity meter.

The most important such absurdity is Plato’s metaphysics – and his metaphysical framework really builds the scaffolding on which the rest of his philosophy rests. Plato believed that everything in this visible world was merely a degraded, corrupted reflection of the Truth, and indeed Truth with a capital T is appropriate here, if it ever was. That’s because the Truth, or the Good, or what have you, was the absolute everything and absolute awesome – it wasn’t God, exactly, but pretty near to it. According to Plato, the Good is perfection, reality, things-as-they-actually are; but we human beings do not really have direct access to the Good – we experience it only indirectly, and the material world around us comes in a sorry second or even third to the awesomeness of the Good. (There’s also the issue of the realm of the Forms, the perfect versions of things, but even though it is enjoyable for its additional level of absurdity we will leave it aside in consideration of time.)

If this is sounding weird, that’s because it is. It’s called metaphysics for a reason, and there is more than a little mysticism in Plato’s descriptions of experiencing the Good directly. The best way to understand this is through Plato’s metaphor of the cave. In The Republic, Plato asks us to imagine prisoners chained inside a cave, restrained in such a way that they can only look at the wall before them. Behind them a fire burns, and it casts shadows on the wall of the objects that go in-between the fire and the prisoners. The prisoners, having spent their whole lives looking at the cave wall, mistake the shadows for the real thing. This is their entire world. Then, someone, somehow, gets out of the cave. At first when they go outside, the light is so blinding that they can’t see for shit, but eventually their eyes adjust and they are totally into the Real World, as it were. So of course our former prisoner goes running back into the cave to let everyone know – but those still chained to the wall can only see a distorted shadow, and hear a distorted voice (it echoes in there weirdly with a big fire behind you, I suppose). So, they never know they are living in a cave, because it turns out only a few people get to go see the true world outside.

That Plato thought he was one such individual is pretty clear, but we’ll get to that in a moment. First let’s just sit with the implications of this version of the world. Everything you and I see, hear, and experience is a muddied down shadow of the real thing; indeed, it barely partakes in the truth, save for creating a visual distortion that prevents us from grasping true reality. Moreover, your average human being is incapable of understanding, on the basis of their senses, the true nature of reality – they are chained, after all, and they lack the requisite tools and knowledge to know any better. So, the immediate material world around us is pretty degraded stuff, and, moreover, most of us are incapable of freeing ourselves from this world or figuring out with our own cognitive power that we are even in a cave. Does this remind you of anything?

These are all fundamental assumptions of Christianity, a religion which rejected the value of the physical world around us in favor of the ideal of something other, something out there. What we see around us – earth, water, air, life – it’s all pretty shitty compared to you know, what is outside the cave. And furthermore, only so much can be learned from it – contrary to what might be assumed, Plato did not argue that true knowledge could be gained from observing natural phenomenon and constructing hypothesis that fit the observed results of experiments. A type of knowledge could be gained, but such a process – science, basically – is still merely an elaborate version of speculating about shadows on the wall, and therefore is never to be mistaken for Truth. True truth (such a phrase indicates this is a problematic concept we’re dealing with) can only be accessed directly, by staring right into that sun – no intermediaries will do. Thus anyone who identifies as a materialist rejects the foundation of Plato’s philosophy – because according to Plato, not only is the material world corrupted, there is only so much one can learn from it.

Moreover, Plato’s metaphysics, even if it did not articulate a concept of a singular, all-wise and all-powerful God, certainly helped pave the way for such a concept. Plato was rather displeased with the religion of his time; in The Republic he argues that all the stories where the gods behave badly should be censured, for should people believe that gods could lie, cheat and scheme, they will be encouraged to do so themselves. Thus only stories of gods being noble, righteous and honest should be told. Intuitively this might make enough sense to us today, but think about the implications – Plato advocated replacing a religious tradition which acknowledged human traits and incorporated them into an understanding of how the world worked with a religious tradition which obliterated these traits and encouraged people to look up to a very-often-impossible ideal instead. So here we again see one of the roots of Christianity; regardless of what most people are actually like, Platonism rejects trying to manage that in a realistic manner and instead holds up an ideal of perfection – an ideal, in Christianity at least, we are all supposed to berate ourselves over if we fail to live up to. In this sense, Plato not only takes a giant piss on the material world, but on material humanity, as well.

So much for the majority of Plato’s thought in terms of how well it might resonate with contemporary atheists. However, what about the politics of Plato? Well, it doesn’t get much better there, either, unless you’re an atheist with an authoritarian bent. Plato believed that only a very small number of people could directly access the Truth, and it was these people who should rule societies in light of this knowledge – hence philosopher kings. However, he did not imagine such philosopher kings going back into the cave, as it were, to educate and enlighten everyone – as Plato suggests, the prisoners inside the cave would for the most part remain helplessly ignorant. Rather, Plato envisioned the philosopher kings using their superior knowledge to organize society in the best way possible – which would involve telling everyone a Noble Lie to make sure they accepted their position in society once the meritocracy sorted out the mediocre from the slightly better and the slightly better from the awesome people. Once your station was determined, however, you ought to be stuck with it – Plato even defined justice as “minding your own business,” and in this manner articulated a vision of a rigid and hierarchical society. But don’t worry – the philosopher kings would rule in the best interest of everyone.

But why couldn’t the philosopher kings just teach everyone about the Good and the Truth, you might ask? Well, it turns out that an understanding of the Good wasn’t something that could really be communicated by good old fashioned language or, as we have seen with Plato’s skepticism about science, even reason. At one point in The Republic, after heavily implying that he is one of the chosen few to know the Truth, his personal lap dog buddy Glaucon asks him to describe what it is like to go out of the cave and be in the sun – but Plato (posturing, as always, as Socrates, mind you) replies that he cannot do so, really – it is impossible to describe unless you experience it. So, here we have an authoritarian political system ruled by people with a special access to truth which cannot be proven by science or reason and is moreover their personal secret knowledge accessible only by personal direct experience with the “sun.” These ideas have historically served us awfully well, haven’t they?

And in the course of all of this, I have not mentioned how incredibly annoying and condescending the Socratic method is, or how absurd and problematic Plato’s ridiculous craft analogies are, or how unpleasant I find the literary style of pretty much all ancient Greek literature, or how I find aspects of Plato which others describe to be “profound” to be totally banal, simplistic, and as imaginative as the speculations of someone stoned out of their minds (“we all have like, three parts to our soul dude and like, they are always struggling for dominance and one is like, a lion and the other, a medusa, with all these snakes coming out of its head and shit”) – because all of this is far more subjective and not to the point: which is that Plato was not merely a douchebag, but a douchebag who gave us a really shitty philosophical tradition that contributed to an ongoing 2,000 year plus tradition of stupidity. Why he is routinely credited even within atheist circles as being some kind of super awesome rationalist thinker is beyond me; this guy helped cement many of the assumptions and traditions we are most opposed to. And this is, of course, not just my personal opinion – and nothing I’ve said here is remotely original in terms of making the link between Platonism and Christianity, which is widely understood and accepted by most scholars and historians.[1] But I think it’s important to know the roots of whence it came – and furthermore, I felt like picking a fight with Tom.

 


[1] The snarkiness here, however, is all original Robin Marie.

 

Discussion

Chris

A nice article indeed!

I must say that I had one major problem with it though. If you quote Nietzsche, make sure to spell his first name right as well. It`s Friedrich Nietzsche, not Frederick. Please change that, as a German, it hurts my eyes to see him being disrespected like that.

Robin Marie

Corrected! Thanks so much for pointing that out, I indeed would hate to disrespect Nietzsche!

I really enjoyed this post as I am new to the realm of philosophy and such. I will certainly cover Plato in my journey and will take particular note on his connection to Christianity as you have effectively pointed out.

Mike

Yeah, but aren’t there some key spots where this thing breaks down?Augustine rejected Plato because the Good was an outward search, where Christ could only be found by searching inward.
And that whole era was nutty with religious causality . The Jews were exiled to Babylon, channeling their dismay by making God act really mean. And even not in the Abrahamhics: Hindu’s were switching things up. The Buddha got his startup off the ground. Actually, the cave metaphor from “The Republic” could just as easily apply to Buddhism -There’s this reality. It’s discernible. Technically, it’s possible to step outside the cave and experience “the unconditioned, the unformed,” to Wake Up but most of you of don’t have the ingredients.
I’m not saying Plato wasn’t a douchebag. You’re showing that clearly he was. But he wasn’t the only one spreading these ideas. There were people thinking the same thing in places far away from ever getting Christianity. Or, to say, his ideas are just as bad for, and as easily adapted into non-Mono’s too. I don’t see why he sucks for atheists any more (less) than anyone else in that time.
And how about a complementary mention of the Euthyphro dilemma? Doesn’t Plato get a small bump up for that? That sucker’s still a blowdart to the helium balloon of Christian pietism, no?
Thanks for writing!

Robin Marie

You’re definitely right, Mike!, it’s more complicated than I have presented here and many similar ideas (at least on the face of them) have developed elsewhere and do not, in all cases, lead to bad ideas and bad consequences. Not even Plato’s bad ideas led to uniformly bad results — the cave metaphor, for example, could be used as a way for us to think critically about political culture — even though historically, on the whole obviously I would characterize them as mostly rather unfortunate. The post was written partly as a playful polemical piece just to get people thinking, so thanks for contributing to that goal :)

Jesse M.

Do you absolutely reject mathematical platonism, though? This can be defined to mean, not that there is some ethereal alternate reality where mathematical forms hang out and zap their truths down to the material world, but simply that mathematical propositions (‘well-formed formulas’ concerning arithmetic, for example) have objective truth-values independent of human beliefs. I think if you asked many physicists and mathematicians, they would at least be sympathetic to this view-certainly modern physics seems to have reduced “the physical” to nothing but a collection of abstract mathematical properties and rules, so what happens to physics if you think mathematical equations don’t have objective solutions independent of whether any human mind happens to contemplate them?

Of course, it is hard to take seriously Plato’s dualistic scheme of a muddy physical world which is somehow “lower” than the realm of pure mathematical forms. I think the best way to have mathematical platonism without this sort of dualism is to take seriously the metaphysical speculation of physicist Max Tegmark-maybe our physical universe *is* just a mathematical form, albeit a very complex one, and maybe we should simply assume that all possible mathematical structures complex enough to contain intelligent creatures would seem equally “real” to those living inside them. This would be the broadest possible conception of a “multiverse” that still assumed each universe obeyed some form of mathematical law, and although it’s obviously not a testable scientific hypothesis, it seems like an appealing speculation for anyone who takes mathematical platonism seriously.

Matt

Plato a douchebag? Are you guys serious? I came across this post by accident while researching and had to comment. The complete disregard for lucid thinking was too much to ignore.

After all, the nature of our very body and it’s limits (even with all the additional toys so called ‘science’ brings us) submits us to a cave of illusion. What can you see - in terms of what actually exists?

I would have to posit that the atheist’s arrogance may be a factor in God not reciprocating with them. In a universe (reality) such as this - where a creative intelligence calls upon us from behind every line of research - atheism seems primitive.

Frank

Friend,

If you are still around, here is what I think about you. It is you that “sucks.” And just what that means, I will leave it up to your small amount of imagination that your little mind may be able to generate. However, any materialism-only drawn atheist can surmise what needs be sucked by morons, especially the so called “educated” ones as you. Well let me tell you, although I am really wasting my time trying to convey this to you, because you are not capable of understanding “reality”. I needed not go past a couple of paragraphs of your idiotic view and assessment of Plato’s philosophy, to ascertain that you are a “brute,” and very much like one of those narrow-minded “Nazi” skin heads of our current times. Go ahead and feast yourself on all your bodily pleasures that the likes of you crave. In fact, gorge yourself so that those other earthly worms, the wiggly ones, will have a feast eating away at your body when you are dead, or perhaps even before that, by other worms like you. Surely we would not want to cheat the worms and disrespect their rights to pleasure themselves on such delicacies that you will provide them, as a result of your having been fattened on your own pleasurable dining. I can also surmise that you are wasting that small amount of brain of yours by keeping it always directed downwards, so as not to miss a tasty morsel of green grass that you should be gorging on, just like the other beasts, the ones that go on four, and spend all their lives eating, shitting, sleeping. Because friend, you would have been better off incarnating your soul into a Jersey cow, then at least you could have contributed a good deal of butterfat to the human race, to make those tasty butter cookies, instead of proving humanity with one more stupid person to deal with.

Anyone that can only see Christianity in Plato/Socrates has to be stupid. And I will add that you do not even get the real meaning of that spiritual part contained in Plato’s works. I can be certain that you have gotten your views from others; bigger and better brutes than yourself, no doubt. You have no originality, nor possess a critical mind. Perhaps besides a Jersey cow, you could have selected being a Parrot, so that way you could have, at least, received lots of crackers for learning and repeating a few human words; “Poly wants a cracker!” Go back to learning by restarting at the kindergarten level, because, surely, your mind must have been playing truant a great deal of the times you were at school, although your body may have been physically present in all the classrooms you have ever attended. I have heard said that “A mind is a terrible thing to waste!

No Friend, not Plato, it is you that Sucks! Plato is he whose sandal strap you are unworthy to loose.

Here, I have given you a cracker! You are a foolish idiot.

I am Frank as can be.

Jesse M.

Note that Frank’s comment contains not a single intellectual argument or even a coherent though-it is just line after line of non-substantive insults. I wonder if he actually has any intellectual reasons for subscribing to Plato’s ideas (independent of Plato’s status as an “authority”), or if it is just a sort of hero-worship, so that any attacks bring for this sort of angry “how dare you attack this great man, you worm!” type of response.

As for Matt’s comment before that one, he uses the findings of science to support the idea of a “creative intelligence” behind them, but to me the amazing patterned structure of nature looks no different in kind from the patterned structure we see in pure mathematical forms like the Mandelbrot set (look up “Mandelbrot zoom” on youtube for some amazing visual tours of this structure, which is generated by a simple one-line equation). Most theistic philosophers have agreed that God has no power to change mathematical and logical truths, and thus cannot be said to have “created” them. Plato likely would have agreed-in his Timaeus he depicted a God who was merely a sort of craftsman (the demiurge) shaping the universe in imitation of preexisting Platonic Forms, which he did not create. If mathematical forms like the Mandelbrot set can exist without God’s help, why can’t a mathematically-structured universe do the same? As I suggested in my earlier comment, one intriguing metaphysical hypothesis is that our universe is nothing more than a particularly complex mathematical form, the physical world having no properties aside from its purely mathematical ones (something increasingly suggested by modern physics).

Frank

Dear Jesse,

Anyone of the lowly status and unknown notoriety in human history, besides being just one in a billion obscure humans of our times, and who makes statements to the like of ; Plato sucks, Plato is a douche bag, Plato is banal, and other such negative titles she ascribes to Plato deserves only insults, however my message contained implied justifications also. Obviously posing plain, and reasonable arguments to such people is beyond anyone human. Only someone divine could possible put some sense into her miniscule brain. But since she also claims to be an obstinate atheist, she would not accept anything conveyed to her even if God directly communicated with her. So since I’m not an atheist, and I do believe in divine beings, I utilized the Old Testament argument of an “eye for an eye”, “a tooth for a tooth,” and “insult for insult.” Had Plato been alive today, upon hearing such nonsense and insults from her, he would have completely ignored her. And why would he even have wasted his time engaging in a discussion/debate with someone who could only be considered just a new born babe, in comparison with Plato, on an intellectual level?

First of all, I landed on this site merely by chance, as I was searching the internet to see if I could find anyone on the internet that, perhaps, had some of the same ideas as me on my own personal interpretations of Plato’s real meaning, and which varies from the mainstream experts on Plato.

Second, I do not consider myself of any importance, as I’m just an ordinary person, “the run-of the mill type.” Therefore resorting to insults in addressing her insult of Plato’s philosophy is not unusual for us, plain “city folk.” And Marie, like me, is just another plain and very common creature of the city’s streets and alleys, even though she may think herself as belonging on a much higher intellectual plane.

Now, as far as you, Jesse, I can also tell that you are not very astute. No, I’m not saying it because you made those comments about me so much, but because you are very shallow in understanding anything about Plato too. You think that you understand Plato, and required that I provide an intellectual argument, along with my so called insults. Well, you have understood me when it came to the insults, as you recognized the insults easy enough, but you failed to recognize the intellectual argument that was also implied along with the insults. And that is precisely my point; neither Marie, nor you, as I’m gathering now by your comments, has any business trying to understand Plato in general, let alone trying to understand the true meaning in the Timaeus.

Substantive evidence and coherent thoughts are not for you nor Marie, and neither for anyone else agreeing with her on her views of Plato. You are all still prisoners in the Cave, and have never surfaced far enough to see the “light.” How can you, you are all atheists, are you not? ” Hopefully you can, at least, accept and think possible that what I’m relating to you is the very truth. So how can you require substantive evidence, when you do not realize, nor even consider possible that the material world you find yourself in is not real? You do not think possible that you, indeed all of us, for that matter, are prisoners in our worldly cave. Can you possibility understand what I have just related to you?

Please, before you demand something you must know and fully understand that something, otherwise how can you know if you have or have not received it? And remember, just because others, through the ages, such as; philosophers, politicians, mathematicians, physicists, astronomers, sociologists, psychologists, religious leaders, along with other professional and also plain simple people alike, whether atheist or not, have not understood Plato, nor profited from the knowledge he tried to impart to others. Do not blame Plato for all those false ideas that others have formulated about Plato’s philosophy.

Has anyone of you on this blog have ever attempted to come out of the cave and have a look around? You know, it is only your body that is shackled in the cave, as your mind is free to go anywhere it wants. After all, only with your mind can see anything outside the cave. As I said before, stop “pasturing,” and raise your heads (mind) upwards, you may just get a glimpse of reality (your substantive evidence requested), and perhaps you may also just come up with a coherent thought of your own. Only then can we continue our conversation, and without insults, I may add.

And just to show you my good intentions, I will point to where you may just get a glimpse, albeit, a small one. You are speculating and are speaking for Plato as you commented above, which is: “Most theistic philosophers have agreed that God has no power to change mathematical and logical truths, and thus cannot be said to have “created” them. Plato likely would have agreed–in his Timaeus he depicted a God who was merely a sort of craftsman (the demiurge) shaping the universe in imitation of preexisting Platonic Forms, which he did not create. “However, Plato would never have assent to your conclusion, not in the least. God can change anything. The reason why he does not should be obvious to all who can peek outside the cave. God, the true King and Statesman, made laws that cannot be broken by anything subject to them, then as any true human statesman should do, in imitating God, if the statesman is a “real” true statesman, is to subject himself to his own laws. Also realize that a creator is always outside his creation, and therefore has the option to come and go into his creation at will. Do you understand so far? God’s physical laws by which the material universe behaves are part of His eternal decrees. Our physical universe moves and changes constantly in accordance with the decrees, but the decrees never change and are eternal. And although we deem death and destruction of the material realm as something evil, we fail to see that all this destruction and death is just a cycle, as out of death and destruction comes life, new stars, new worlds, and yes, new living beings, and all sorts and “flavors” of life form. All ever abiding by God’s eternal decrees (Decrees=Natural causes to the atheists). Man has shown an affinity for discovering and utilizing the natural laws, but realize and note that man cannot in any way change those laws to its liking. We create new technology and manipulate matter for our use, but at no time have we, nor can we alter the natural laws.Realize that any intervention by God in this physical universe of ours will be done following His on decrees. The physical laws will never be broken, not even by God, because if even one single atom in our universe were to violate the natural physical laws, it would propagate to the complete annihilation of our universe.

I would try to explain my views on the significance and purpose of our existence, as laid down by Socrates/Plato, but I’m afraid you will never accept them as long as your mind remains a complete prisoner in the cave, as your body is. In other words, as long as you remain a staunch atheist, and completely refuse to accept even the remotest possibility of thinking otherwise, there is no use in trying. I would compare that to a frighten, and lost, cat trapped in a dead-end alley, and having no way out, is scratching and biting anything that comes near it, and is incapable of realizing that one of those attempting to come close is only trying to help, and not mean it harm.

And don’t think that I have any liking for any of the organized churches and religions of any kind, nor new age or whatever is in vogue today. They are worst than an atheist, and probably so because most atheist become complete atheists as a result of having been subject to any one of those religions and organizations, at one time or another in their lifetime.

To conclude, if you or others are going to get any benefit from reading Plato, look at it in a different light which, historically, has been presented to us, so far. Only then will you have a possibility at understanding Plato correctly, and therefore gain the ultimate happiness. You will understand what I mean by “happiness”, when you get a glimpse at it, if you are fortunate enough; in other words, “when you will write your name in the book of life.” Clue; the totally of Plato’s true written works is the book of life. And no, Plato is not a God-figure hero to me, he is just one of God’s messengers, and to you also, once you really understand him………

Frank

Dear Marie,
If I cannot impress Jesse with intellectuality, which I do not posses, then let me try to impress him with resolve and volume. Anyway it’s possible for intellectuals to come down to my lower level of intelligence, but it is impossible the other way around, if we, down here, don’t get a helping hand from “yous” up there.

By being brief in my initial comments to your Plato article, I was taking in consideration that you, and possibly your audience and commentators were “truly” intellectuals. I assumed that anyone dealing with philosophy, theology, mathematics, physics, astronomy, and all other noble subjects, especially by those dissecting these subjects and the works of such distinct and established original thinkers, to give us their own perspective and interpretation have to be intellectuals, for sure. Needless to say, I assumed wrong. But then, I’m no intellectual either, as I have already stated. So I have been asked by your audience to provide comments that are more within their grasp, since my assessment of your assessment of Plato’s philosophy was considered much on the same level as your opinion of Plato, which you stated was vulgar, boring, simple, without sense, and a work of a drug addict, along with other sweet, and charming compliments. You did not mention even one positive thing about Plato or Socrates, and you concluded by pondering as to what can anyone possibly see in Plato and why he is held in such high esteem? This, as you say is beyond you. That Plato is beyond you is quite obvious to anyone that has thoroughly read Plato, and Nietzsche. As part of your assessment of Plato, you are implying and presenting a picture that Plato endorsed tyranny, and his Republic is aimed at supporting and justifying such a monstrous state. It is easy to pinpoint your source from which you get your “inspiration” to render your assessment of Plato, and this source is also the same from whom you borrowed all those terms of “praises” you bestowed on poor Plato and Socrates. This source is none other than our dear and immortal champion of the atheist cause, Mr. Nietzsche himself. Wow! you got it completely backwards, my dear. You were really assessing and presenting a perfect picture of Nietzsche, rather than Plato.

Anyway I complied with the implied request, and thereby responded with my second posted comment entry, which was mainly directed at Jesse M, as I have not yet heard from you, Marie. Well, I do not think that Jesse comprehended my second posted comments either; probably too religious and bizarre, I bet. What can you intellectuals expect from crack-heads like me and Plato? But since I do not like people to get the wrong idea about me, or Plato especially, and also for the benefit of your audience, I had to draft out this long communiqué, which I had initially hoped to avoid. And so here goes.

Let me re-begin by stating that, like you Marie, I claim no originality in the majority of what follows here, as it is all freely available on the internet (thank God for the internet), but like the returning of Christ and the weapon coming out of his mouth, the internet is a two-edged sword, right Marie? For a gal who claims to want to pick fights your silence is not golden as the saying goes. But perhaps you just may not have read my comments, or worst still, you consider your intellectuality too valuable and too high, and therefore refuse to come down to my “CAVE,” to free me from the shackles of faulty beliefs and lack of proper knowledge.

Author, author the crowd is clapping loudly and screaming…More, More, Encore please….. And so why are you not coming out to take another round of applause, my dear Marie? After all, such marvelous, substantive, coherent , and highly intellectual critique of Plato, and all in just eleven short paragraphs deserves not only applause for you from the audience, but they are ready to kneel to you in adoration and some are even contemplating asking you to grant miracles. Please St. Marie, give me sight so that I can gaze on the ultimate God, you. Ops, correction, I meant Good and misspelled it by omitting an “o”. Now I can understand your double meaning hidden in your comedy writing, specifically where you stated that Plato’s “Good” is almost God, but not quite. Just one little “o” less and the word good becomes God. Na, just a coincidence, you don’t get any kudos for it.

Anyway, such is the fervor that you have sparked, my dear. Wow! just 11 short paragraphs to fully expose the “real” Plato. And just to think that through 2,500 years of history some intellectuals have needed a lifetime to understand Plato, and have written volumes and volumes of books, and still could not fully bring out the essence of Plato. And you accomplished the task in just a few minutes and 11 paragraphs. You must be a divine being, for sure. I do not know if it is another coincidence, but the number 11 makes me think of the 11 dimensions in the multiverse of M-theory. Your spokesman Jesse should be excited about that, after all he is interested in these subjects, and feels right at home with anything explaining the existence of our universe as only requiring a mathematical equation to create and sustain itself with no need for God; “Gott ist tot.“ Can this be really a coincidence? or possibly a sure sign of your new found divinity? Poor Jesse does not realize that he has caught a very small glimpse of God, and he does not recognize it because he sees only pure mathematical forms. If he could only stand to gaze (reason) just a little bit higher, he would see that mathematics are abstract, and are seen only by the mind’s eye. Mathematics can only come from an intelligent and creative mind, God’s. Ask Einstein, ask Newton, ask Pascal, ask many other great men of science, and they will tell you the same thing, because they have managed to free their minds from the cave, and have caught a good glimpse. Poor Sir Newton, besides getting a good glimpse, he must have noticed something else up there, but not clear enough though. Newton spent the last 20 years of his life in seclusion spending most of it with the Bible; he was searching for a code contained in it. He just did not see enough up there, because the whole time he was looking in the wrong book, as he should have been looking in Plato’s works too, as there lies the key to the code, as then Newton could have really understood the Bible.

Dear Jesse, the clue to mathematics and the construction of the whole universe is indeed in the Timaeus. Plato did not give us the equations themselves, he just gave us clues. While there Jesse, take a look to see if you can spot the clue to dark matter, and dark energy, while keeping in mind the attributes that our theoretical physicists give to our new found, mysterious substances of the cosmos, although both are not visible nor detectable, so far.. And don’t criticize Matt, because he has definitely been out of the cave, and he did attempt to convey it to you atheists by his short and sarcastic remarks. That was funny, Matt!.

The “intellectual” Jesse M demanded an intellectual rebuttal from me, and not just insults, as he clearly stated. He does not realize that he himself is not an intellectual at all; otherwise, if he had any real and impartial knowledge of Plato, and also be familiar with Nietzsche, he would have requested substantive and coherent reasoning from you, Marie, for your “expert” assessment of Plato’s philosophy, and not from me. But then again, what can anyone expect from someone who “gawks at a gnat and swallows a camel?” Typical of self-proclaimed and proud, intellectual atheists; he denies one single “Heavenly” heaven because the senses cannot detected it, and then believes in 10 other heavens, besides the only one we all can sense.

Back to you, Marie, as it seems that you have solved that old riddle posed by Socrates—what is “justice?”And you provided the answer using just one expression—“minding your own business.” Plato wasted all that time writing the Republic in an attempt to convey and explain just what justice and the just man could be, and you did it with just a single phrase. Congratulations Marie, you have convinced your entire atheist following— all 3 of them. Well! please allow me t ask you to be “just” yourself by tending to your own business, because, really, you have no business dealing with Plato’s business, nor any other philosophers, especially Nietzsche, since he is especially dangerous to minds like yours. And like him, you will go crazy in end.

Still, I must admit that I really “admired” your shrewd assessment of the allegory of the cave; how did you ever manage that? As you say, it is just a front to be used by those who want power, and these use stealth and allegories to fool and maintain power over those ignorant, gullible masses of the cave. Apart from presenting an incorrect assessment of the allegory and the “vision,” you were mistaken on your version of the “guardians” connection with not returning to the cave to help the other poor prisoners. Not that it matters none, because anyone who has personally read the dialogue can tell you have it wrong. It is plain enough that in the Republic the training of the future, possible guardians being trained and screened for leadership are required to descent back in the cave, whereas you, conveniently for your cause, stated that they do not. And you are also wrong when you stated that Plato claimed that only a few elites as himself were capable of achieving the view of the Good. And here are some excerpts from the Republic, translated by Paul Shorey, which elaborates all your errors.

“This image then, dear “lap dog, ” (Glaucon) we must apply as a whole to all that has been said, likening the region revealed through sight to the habitation of the prison, and the light of the fire in it to the power of the sun. And if you assume that the ascent and the contemplation of the things above is the soul’s (mind) ascension to the intelligible region, you will not miss my surmise, since that is what you desire to hear. But God knows whether it is true. But any rate, my dream as it appears to me is that in the region of the known the last thing to be seen and hardly seen is the idea of the good, and that when seen it must needs point us to the conclusion that this is indeed the cause for all things of all that is right and beautiful, giving birth in the visible world to light, and the author of light and itself in the intelligible world being the authentic source of truth and reason, and anyone who is to act wisely in private or public office must have caught sight of this…..…It is the duty of us, the founders, then, said I, to compel the best natures to attain the knowledge which we pronounced the greatest, and to win to the vision of the good, to scale that ascent, and when they have reached the heights and taken an adequate view, we must not allow what is now permitted. What is that? That they should linger there, I said, and refuse to go down again among those bondsmen and share their labors and honors, whether they are of less or of greater worth. Do you mean to say that we must do to them this wrong, and compel them to live an inferior life when the better is in their power? You have again forgotten, my friend, said I, that the law is not concerned with special happiness of any class in the state, but is trying to produce this condition of happiness in the city as a whole, harmonizing and adapting the citizens to one another by persuasion and compulsion, and requiring them to impart to one another any benefit which they are severally able to bestow upon the community, and that it itself creates such men in the state, not that it may allow each to take what courses pleases him, but with a view of using them for the binding together the commonwealth…………(much further on in the dialogue dealing with the curriculum of the training, we read the following.) Do you mean six or four? he said. Well, I said, set it down as five years. For after that you will have to send them down into the cave again, and compel them to hold commands in war and the other offices suitable to youth, so that they may not fall short of the other type in experience either. And in these offices, too, they are to be tested to see whether they will remain steadfast under diverse solicitations or whether they will flinch and swerve. How much time do you allow for that? He said. Fifteen years, said I, and at the age of fifty those who have survived the tests and approved themselves altogether the best in every task and form of knowledge must be brought at last to the goal.”

Marie, don’t get discouraged if you have only 3 apparent commentators and followers on this particular topic, as they are sure to grow exponentially once your message goes all out on the internet. For sure you will sway all those millions and millions of admirers of Plato, even the ones long gone, and they will soon flock to you like flies on shit, because you have finally managed to have fully understood and explained to them what a “crack-head” Plato was, and surmised his entire philosophy in a “nutshell,” as Socrates would say. Wow! I can’t believe that you did not mention the mythical Atlantis. After all, it only stands to reason that a power hungry mongrel, vain, simplistic, banal, douche bag, and drug addicted sham of a philosopher could only have seen Atlantis on a routine LSD trip. So people out there, stop looking for Atlantis, because Marie has, intellectually, and single-handed put an end to a 2,500 years old question! You assessment of Plato also seems to fit the bill, since a drug addict is apt to drop all and anything they are doing just to get a fix, and therefore would explain why we have an incomplete dialogue, and would also explain the missing dialogues—-folks they were never written; Plato ran out of drugs and, consequently, his “ideas” and “forms” he perceived only when in a “high” state of contemplation dried up. Or as you cutely stated it— Plato was “stoned out of his mind.”

Let me ask you, Marie, at what point in reading Plato did you come to your enlightened understanding? I mean in what order did you read the dialogues, how many did you read, and if not in the original Greek, in which language, and who were the translators? Did you read any of the thousands, past and present, intellectual thinkers’ assessments of Plato? What about those others stemming from his philosophy?

As I have indicated earlier, you referenced a quote by Nietzsche, which made it clear to me right away, as to where you were borrowing from. Like any other good, intellectual atheist, have you also, intensely, studied Nietzsche? Let me ask you a question here. You are not gay, are you? And I mean to establish this because if you are and you do consider yourself a man, then I can see you not taking issues with Nietzsche’s view on women. But if you are a heterosexual woman, and which I assumed you were, as you can see that assumption of mine in the “so called insults” on my first post, because I was not totally insulting you, but I was merely using some of Nietzsche’s views of women. This you would have quickly spotted, if you are a good student of Nietzsche. Because, besides his quote on Platonism and Christianity you provided on your assessment of Plato, you should be familiar with other quotes and statements by him. Therefore I assumed that you were familiar with Nietzsche’s views on women, as Nietzsche frequently made remarks in his writing that many deem as misogynistic. And here is just a taste.
1. Woman’s love involves injustice and blindness against everything that she does not love… Woman is not yet capable of friendship: women are still cats and birds. Or at best cows… (Thus Spoke Zarathustra - On the Friend)
2. Woman! One-half of mankind is weak, typically sick, changeable, inconstant… she needs a religion of weakness that glorifies being weak, loving, and being humble as divine: or better, she makes the strong weak-she rules when she succeeds in overcoming the strong… Woman has always conspired with the types of decadence, the priests, against the “powerful”, the “strong”, the men- (The Will to Power)

I used the term “brute,” referring to Nietzsche’s view where he expresses that man must be counted literally among the brutes. This view is contained in his work, Beyond Good & Evil, as one the aphorisms.

The term “worm(s)” that I used, and which I reversed who is considered a worm, refers to a passage from Nietzsche’s, The Genealogy of Morals:
“The sick are the great danger of man, not the evil, not the ‘beasts of prey.’ They who are from the outset botched, oppressed, broken those are they, the weakest are they, who most undermine the life beneath the feet of man, who instill the most dangerous venom and skepticism into our trust in life, in man, in ourselves…Here teem the worms of revenge and vindictiveness; here the air reeks of things secret and unmentionable; here is ever spun the net of the most malignant conspiracy – the conspiracy of the sufferers against the sound and the victorious; here is the sight of the victorious hated.”

Jesse M, did not spot Nietzsche in the terms I used in addressing you like; “brute”, “cow”, “bird”, “worm”, “Nazi skinhead.”
The term “modern day Nazi skinheads” = Friedrich Nietzsche was anti-democracy, anti-Christianity, anti-Judaism, anti-socialist and self-acclaimed Anti-Christ, and expressed his belief in a master race and the coming of a superman in many of his works. He inspired and guided the sick mind of the most brutal and cold-blooded mass murdering Tyrant of all times, so far, and many other Germans that supported and followed Hitler. Stalin was not far behind Hitler when it came to atrocities and tyrannical mania, and additionally, although on a smaller scale, the fascist Mussolini were also inspired by Nietzsche, I add here that, apparently, Nietzsche has also a following in the good old democratic and equal rights environment of the USA—- Marie are you one of them? Let us all beware, because history can and will repeat itself, even here in the good old USA. But come to think of it, you could have saved all that work, as you just could have described Plato in one sentence, and at the same time express your view on him. Here is the sentence; I agree with Nietzsche on all his views on Socrates/Plato, and most of the Ancient Greeks’ literature.

Plato’s Republic is much, much more than just one allegory of the cave. If anyone is really interested in the truth and wants to know it, read Plato’s Republic. For those in the cave, and only interested in the apparent sensible world, you will find Socrates/Plato’ views and ratings on the five major types of government, and their individual person types resembling these five governments, plus how each is established and the transition from one to the other. However, the Utopian government being founded by Socrates and company, which is other than the five, is not fit for the eyes of atheists, as it is actually a description of the promised “Kingdom” to come, if you get my meaning. Anyway, for the atheists and non-atheists alike, if one compares what is written in the Republic regarding these five government types, and their respective individual types, to the coming to power by both Hitler and Stalin, one would really be in for a treat.

Socrates tells Glaucon (sarcastically of course): And now, the fairest of polity and the fairest man remain for us to describe, the tyranny and the tyrant. Come then, tell me, dear friend and “lap dog”, how tyranny arises. That it is an outgrow of democracy is fairly plain….. …As we are all so aware, Nazi Germany under the leadership of Hitler soon became a dictatorship. A dictatorship requires one person and one party to be in control of a nation and a climate of fear - this was provided by Himmler’s SS. Personal freedom disappeared in Nazi Germany. How did Germany descend so quickly into becoming a dictatorship? When Hitler was appointed in January 1933, Germany was a democracy. Germany had fair elections; nobody had their right to vote abused; there were numerous political parties you could vote for etc.
When Hitler was appointed chancellor on January 30th 1933, it was at the head of a coalition government. It was very clear in his mind that it would not remain this way for long. By the end of March 1933, he had acquired much greater powers than the former leading politicians of the Weimar Republic could ever have foreseen when they supported his appointment as chancellor. The death of President Hindenburg in August 1934, allowed him to combine both chancellor’s and president’s positions into one when Hitler became the Fuehrer and Reich Chancellor. To pass a law, the Reichstag had to agree to it after a bill went through the normal processes of discussion, arguments etc. Within the Reichstag of January 1933, over 50% of those who held seats were against the Nazi Party. Therefore it would have been very unlikely for Hitler to have got passed into law what he wanted. Many saw Hitler as a fall-guy politician who would have to shoulder to blame if things got worse under his leadership.
Hitler had promised a general election for March 1933. This would have been, in his mind, the perfect opportunity for him to show all politicians who opposed him where the true loyalties lay in the German people. In fact, 1932 had shown Hitler that there was a possibility that support for the Nazis had peaked as their showing in the November 1932 election had shown. Anything other than a huge endorsement of Hitler and the Nazi Party would have been a disaster and a gamble which it is possible that Hitler did not want to take.
One week before the election was due to take place, the Reichstag building burned down. Hitler immediately declared that it was the signal for a communist takeover of the nation. Hitler knew that if he was to convince President Hindenburg to give him emergency powers - as stated in the Weimar Constitution - he had to play on the old president’s fear of communism. What better than to convince him that the communists were about to take over the nation by force?
A known communist - Marianus van der Lubbe - was caught near the Reichstag building immediately after the fire had started. Those that arrested him - Nazi officials - claimed that Lubbe confessed to them that the fire was a signal to other communists to start the revolution to overthrow democracy in the country. Matches were allegedly found on van der Lubbe and those who arrested him claimed that he smelt of petrol.
Hitler asked Hindenburg to grant him emergency powers in view of the ‘communist takeover’. Using the constitution, Hindenburg agreed to pass the Law for the Protection of the People and the State.
This law gave Hitler what he wanted - a ban on the Communists and Socialists taking part in an election campaign. The leaders from both parties were arrested and their newspapers were shut down. To ‘keep the peace’ and maintain law and order, the SA (the Brown Shirts) roamed the streets beating up those who openly opposed Hitler.
The election took place in March - though Hitler was convinced it would be the last. Hitler did not get the number of votes he wanted but he did get enough to get over a 50% majority in the Reichstag:
That 12 million people voted for what were effectively two outlawed parties is remarkable when the intimidation of voters is taken into account.
After the burning down of the Reichstag, politicians had nowhere to meet. The Kroll Opera House in Berlin was chosen. This was a relatively small round building - perfect for meetings. On March 23rd, elected officials were due to meet to discuss and vote on Hitler’s Enabling Law.
As politicians neared the building, they found it surrounded by SS and SA thugs who tried to ensure that only Nazi or Nationalist politicians got into the building. The vote for this law was crucial as it gave Hitler a vast amount of power. The law basically stated that any bill only needed Hitler’s signature and within 24 hours that bill would become law in Germany. With only Nazis and other right wing politicians inside the Kroll Opera House, the bill was quickly passed into law. The act gave Hitler what he wanted - dictatorial power. What he wanted would become law in Germany within 24 hours of his signature being put on paper.
On 7th April 1933, Nazi officials were put in charge of all local government in the provinces.
On May 2nd 1933, trades unions were abolished, their funds taken and their leaders put in prison. The workers were given a May Day holiday in return.
On July 14th 1933, a law was passed making it illegal to form a new political party. It also made the Nazi Party the only legal political party in Germany.
Germany became a nation of snoops. People were employed in each street, in each building complex etc. with the sole purpose of keeping an eye on others in their ‘area’ and reporting them to the authorities if they believed that something was amiss. The reputation of the Nazi police and the secret police lead by Himmler was such that no-one wished to cause offense. People kept their thoughts to themselves unless they wished to invite trouble. In this sense, Nazi Germany was a nation run on fear of the government. Hitler had created a one party state within months of being appointed chancellor.
His only remaining problem from his point of view was loyalty within his own party ranks. In June 1934, he overcame this with the Night of the Long Knives.
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Soviet democracy (sometimes council democracy) is a form of democracy in which workers’ councils called “soviets” (Russian for “council”), consisting of worker-elected delegates, form organs of power possessing both legislative and executive power. The soviets begin at the local level and onto a national parliament-like assembly. According to Vladimir Lenin and other Marxist theorists, the soviets represent the democratic will of the working class.
As far as Stalin goes, he gained total control of the country, where people worked, where they lived, even what crops were planted and what was sold, and anybody who spoke out against the Communist party, or Stalin could be imprisoned or killed. Millions were killed under Stalin, some say even more than under Hitler, mainly because the Soviet Union was such a vast country. Communism is total control of the economy by the government, no private ownership, etc. But under Stalin, unlike what Karl Marx had theorized, the government, not the people had total control. The people of the Soviet Union or other Communist countries had no say in their life.

In many ways Hitler and Stalin were alike, but on economics they were different. Hitler targeted the Jews specifically, and Stalin was no doubt also anti-Semitic and killed many Jewish people, but it was less about them being Jewish. Maybe it was because they, like some Christians, refused to give up their faith in the atheistic country, or maybe they had money or property they did not want to give up. But many from all religions and ethnic groups were imprisoned or killed under Stalin.

We are free to believe what we want, as the mind cannot come under outside dictatorship, like the body, unless it deceives itself, or tricked into slavery from some devious and malignant outside source, like ignorance.

Derek

If I wouldn’t read Frank’ comments I wouldn’t know that some kind of religious-politicism, I’d call “Platonazism”, idea exists. However, I did not take anything serious about what Frank wrote, at best he wrote kind of pathetic comedy dedicated to Plato.

I mean, come on! Philosophy is to think about everything you like, including on items like a god, a God or gods. But to take one philosophical idea, out of many, and “smash” everybody around with it, looks more like what religions are doing, not Philosophy

Frank

Derek,
Thanks for taking the time to read my comments, as thanks are always proper, when due.

I’m still confused about you guys, as I do not see any coherent or substantive evidence to back up your support of Marie’s view, (actually Nietzsche’s view) although some of you keep demanding it of me. What is your beef, Derek? I did not notice anything in relation to Plato on your comments, and do you too, Brutus, think Plato a “douche bag,” and are thrusting your dagger into his side by accusing him of championing and being the root of the type of Christianity we have today? Do you read Plato?

Here, let me put my rebuttal to Marie’s subject article for this blog much on the same note as hers, but with more facts and opinions, to boot.

“Nietzsche and Dogmatism, his prelude to pretenses and insults to “truth” by way of Plato’s funeral, and deceitful eulogy; Nazism is NIETZSCHEANISM to the people.

Many modern intellectual thinkers have surmised that Nietzsche was extremely jealous of Plato’s fame and “immortality” in the Western World, and wanting to dethrone him, Nietzsche writings unleashed many misconceptions riddled with false and baseless lies, and masquerading them as philosophical treatises, he attempted to attract a following of his own. He succeeded only in completely driving himself mad, and those few followers and disciples that he gained, mostly after his death, were only of the God-less “variety.” Nietzsche’s battle plan included attacks meant to demeanor and belittle Plato, and also falsely accusing him of initiating and promulgating the type of Christianity existing in the 19th century, which had been, in the past, responsible for enticing long and repetitive bloody wars, crusades, inquisitions, discouraging of ideas not in-line with the church, especially scientific ones, and which has resulted in a Christianity that is mostly, contrary to its own fundamental teachings. By putting his devious plan in action, he concluded that he would be successful in overthrowing 2,300 years of logical and completely sane and sound philosophy. A “superhuman” herculean task if you ask me!

Although it had been evident to other philosophers and thinkers that Plato could not be blamed for the actions of others, the real culprits responsible for all the ills that Christianity had suffered, Nietzsche had to somehow, fashion and invent a false philosophical new idea to accomplish his insidious and well disguised plan. Nietzsche suggests that the foundations of all dogmatism are based on childish superstitions or prejudices. Dogmatism has been responsible for Plato’s ideals of pure spirit and the Form of the Good which Nietzsche calls “the worst, most durable, and most dangerous of errors so far. Platonism, claimed Nietzsche, was to be blamed for its Dogmatic fixation of the ultimate “Good” as being the absolute truth and the resulting hypothesis that all humans must place the soul and its needs before the physical and sensible needs and pleasures of the body. These beliefs are dogmatic to Nietzsche because they serve as foundations that do not themselves admit of criticism. Nietzsche “preached” that Plato’s dialogues were politically aristocratic and philosophically mystical. However, few serious and fair students of the dialogues have ever denied their suggestiveness and extent to which they stimulate the thought. Many strands are interwoven in the dialogues but always at the center is REASON, the logos, in nature steering all things from within.

Nietzsche’s accusation hold no water, as the saying goes, because, to expose the truth, one needs only to go Alexandria, Egypt, where at the beginning phases of Christianity, Alexandria was a meeting place and a hub for all religions and philosophies which met and mingled in the schools of Alexandria, and the Neo-Platonists had a method of interpretation which could elicit any meaning out of any words. They were really incapable of distinguishing between the opinions of one philosopher and another— between Aristotle and Plato, or between the serious thoughts of Plato and his passing fancies. They were absorbed in his theology and were under the dominion of his name, while that which was truly great and truly characteristic in him, his effort to realize and connect abstractions, was not understood by them at all. Yet the genius of Plato and Greek philosophy reacted upon the East, and a Greek element of thought and language overlaid and partly reduced to order the chaos of Orientalism. And kindred spirits, like St. Augustine, even though they were acquainted with his writings only through the medium of a Latin translation, were profoundly affected by them, seeming to find ‘God and his word everywhere insinuated’ in them. Despite all the reliable writings out there exonerating Plato, still, the Nietzscheism crowd keeps reverberating the old lies of their master and madman, not realizing nor accepting responsibility for Nietzsche’s “brand” of philosophy, which can be attributed to the catastrophic results on human life, conditions, and freedom, along with very significant property and environmental disasters, stemming from wars which insane tyrants have initiated and provoked by being inspired by Nietzsche. NIETZSCHEANISM has given us the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Saddam Hussein, Gaddafi, and a score of other ruthless and mass murdering mad tyrants. Talk about dogmatism!

Although Nietzsche, as of lately, has gained more notoriety with the atheist movement, he failed miserably with his smear campaign, and Plato is still held with the outmost respect by millions, and still has many supporters within the atheist movement itself. It appears that within the contents of the works of Plato, many others have speculated that Plato’s works contains passages that allude to some of our modern day scientific knowledge that some have coined “mathematical Platonism.” Additionally many respected scholars of the 19th and 20th centuries have lauded Plato for being a most advance visionary and original thinker for various academic fields. After all, was not the Academy he founded the first ever of its kind? We even use the term “academic” to address all higher learning institution disciplines.

Plato wrote his dialogues 23 centuries ago, and the thought of the ancient world, the Middle Ages, the Renaissance, and that of contemporary times, have all come under their influence. They have been widely and extensively praised as the substance of the Western thought, as the corrective for the excesses to which the human mind is subject, and as setting forth the chief lines of the Western view of the world as they have never been delineated before or since in philosophy, politics, logic, and psychology. He had a wide acquaintance with the prominent men of his time, traveled extensively abroad, and at the age of forty founded the Academy and directed its affairs until his peaceful and natural death. The academy had a continuous life of nine hundred years, a longer life span than any other educational institution in the West. Therefore, Plato’s abilities must here be judged by the merits of the specific proposals he outlined in the dialogues. It is not necessary to read them closely to be impressed with his intense interest in the correction of social and political abuses. That many of his suggestions had intrinsic value is adequately attested by their subsequent adoption in educational and political practice and the persistence of their influence even to the present, and no doubt, also in the far future.

Plato was a philosopher and poet, but not a mystic. He has been a source of inspiration to many types of mysticism but is writings have been repeatedly misread. This misunderstanding has been greatly promoted and popularized by the writings of Philo and Plotinus. Philo claimed that Plato’s Ideas and the Biblical angels are one and the same, and Plotinus’ mysticism is actually called Neo-Platonism. But Plato saw the world to be intelligible, that is, he held that the system pervades all things.

In the Timaeus Plato’s aim is to reveal order in terms of the world and things. But not withstanding its mystical form, or perhaps because of it, the Timaeus has been one of Plato’s most influential dialogues. However, it is a dangerous undertaking to make the Timaeus or other writings to say more than Plato intended or to interpret his remarks as anticipations of later developments. The Christian Fathers and the Middle Ages found in the first sentence of the Timaeus a foreknowledge of the Trinity. We are told in our own sophisticated age by a responsible historian of science that Plato himself formulated the idea of negative numbers and that he advanced the germ of the Newtonian-Leibnizian calculus. We are also told that the theory of Ideas is a counterpart of contemporary mathematical logic. The Copenhagen quantum physicists argued that the views of Plato in the Timaeus more closely approximate the fundamental law of nature than those of his opponents in the classical world.

Plato’s philosophy is unique in the history of thought since what he said has been stated only once. His great commentators from Aristotle to Hegel have all attempted to improve upon him. He was poet, thinker, and scientist all in one and there has been no such combination of powers displayed by anyone before, or since. To understand Plato is to be educated; it is to see the nature of the world in which we live.

On the other hand, Nietzsche has been described as a bit of an “old maid” who never outgrew the “straight-laced” ideas of his early surroundings and the pedagogical atmosphere in which he lived most of his life. Nietzsche was a demented pervert, an “in-the-closet” homosexual who died of syphilis contracted by having sex with male prostitutes in the brothels of some Italian city, and which, in consequence of the disease attacking his mental nervous system, which, in symbiosis with his debilitating inborn mental instability, led to the pinnacle of his madness and ultimate premature death. His “madness” letters evidence Nietzsche’s real personality traits, and revealed the origin of the misconceptions he held of himself and from whence his so called, “philosophical” ideas surfaced from. Many modern psychologists have provided a list of his apparent psychological mental symptoms; An inferiority complex alternating with bouts of extreme Narcissistic personality disorder; Frequent and persistent, unjustified thoughts of grandiosity; Extreme intemperance; Extreme love for gratification of earthly passions without limits; Extreme want of solitude and seclusion to fantasize his delusional and pathological thoughts of having killed God; Pathological embitterment syndrome; Extreme jealousy of other’s successes; Compulsive lying; Unwarranted love for controversy; Extremely anti-social; Very obstinate hate of the opposite sex; Extreme use of derogatory aphorisms, directed at women and Christians of both sexes, and meant to incite hate and disdain towards them, by comparing them to animals and insects; Writing of much propaganda tending to extreme behavior, and leading others to incitements of revolution, rioting, discrimination, mass murdering, false patriotism leading to the establishment of extremely Tyrannical governments, etc, etc.

“Frankly,” I cannot see how anyone of normal intelligence and in possession of their full mental “faculties” can attribute anything positive to this impostor and author of written material that is masquerading as philosophical treatises. Of course I can understand that anyone making and spreading positive comments about Nietzsche’s works can only do so while under the influence of ignorance, or drugs, or both. But perhaps, and most likely, his supporters and followers are ardent promoters of their own perverse way of lifestyles, and support Nietzsche’s mad ideas with the purpose of “justifying” their pervasiveness, and which no doubt, those individuals are also and “positively” inflicted with some or all the physical and mental conditions analogous to Nietzsche conditions, which would, correspondingly, lead to premature madness, and possibly even death, if also afflicted with aids, or some other incurable mental disease, such as incurable, malignant, chronic atheism.

And so my dear Derek, if I still have your outmost attention, I want to also thank you for the complement. You at least gave me a compliment, even though a “pathetic” one. As I have said, I’m no intellectual, not even remotely close to an atheist one, at that. So do not expect “great” things from me, as one expects from one of the elite of the elitist club in vogue today, the atheist’s club. And please do not get me wrong by thinking that I’m trying to convert anyone to religion, or “pushing” Plato on anyone, as I myself am lost in this world, and have yet to find someone or something to cling on to, so that I may be guided in the right path; whatever that may be, as I am not even certain and do not know where we are all going, or why? Although I have my own ideas on that, I’m not ready to lead anyone until I’m 100% certain. Which just may be never, as I do not think anyone can ever be certain 100%, and as Socrates would say; only God knows?

And that was exactly Socrates’ point, and which is still valid today, as we seem to have a few, the elite of the human race, the so called “intellectuals” who still like to differ with Socrates, as the Sophists did. The Sophists of yesterday are the “intellectuals” of today, those that think and are convinced that they know of God or as much as God, and that is 100%. Who are these modern day sophists? Why of course the atheists; both the religious and the scientific atheists. The scientific atheist is really convinced—-they claim that they are certain, 100% certain, that God does not exist. The religious atheists also believe 100% that there is no God, although they go around professing to believe in God and angels, prophets and saints, and whatever else, while all along their true agenda is to become masters of the earthly pleasures and so, become tyrants to obtain those pleasures for themselves and their trusted accomplices. Religious leaders of all “faiths” are truly faithless; those ravenous wolves in sheep’s clothing. And what do these modern day sophists reply to Socrates if he were still alive today and asking: but my dear boy, how can you be so certain? What can you provide to show us your complete confidence that God does not exist? And you religious leaders, my dear Euthyphro, what is piety? And you, Pharisees and Scribes, Popes, cardinals, bishops, and clergyman of all Christendom, and you ayatollahs, and imams; you hypocrites, who love the best seats and for a pretense you offer up prayers, and love greetings in the marketplaces and the places of honor at feasts, who devour widows’ houses, and send the young men to their deaths, and all in the name of “faith.”

You, Derek, still do not understand. Why? Apart from the fact that you, as you stated, had read my earlier comments, although you did not really want to, for some reason, or just out of curiosity. But I think it was more for a chance to show off your “mighty” intellectuality on a poor ignorant fellow, so that you could provide a few more snickers for your friends, much like Jesse M with his reply to me, or Marie’s assessment of Plato.
After you have finished snickering, you too did not understand a word I was “saying,” and you also seem not to understand the term “philosophy” and what that really means.

Why do I say this? It is because you and just about everyone today uses the word philosophy in the same way you have just described it: “Philosophy is to think about everything you like….” But these others also use the term mainly to describe a preferred way of life. A gay person would select a way of life suitable to a gay person, and then state that their philosophy is that anything goes, sexually. Or a psychopathic killer would state that pleasure is killing without reason, and the stealth to accomplish it is also a part of their philosophy. Or someone else, someone who cares not, one way or the other, as long as they have their pleasure would state that their philosophy is to live and let live. Hitler would state that his philosophy is gaining power and be that “superhuman” being of Nietzsche’s, the measure of everything. And only a “madman” the likes of Hitler can and did like to think of becoming that superhuman, and at all costs, including lying, cheating, imposing fear and death to those that tried to get in his way; with his brand of philosophy he destroyed his Fatherland, much of Europe, north Africa, millions of his countryman, millions of innocent Jews, and millions of others having to stop this madman and modern day sophist. Not to say anything less of Stalin, or Mussolini or Napoleon, any other Tyrant in history. And don’t think that many of the world religions that harbor injustice and turn a blind eye to everything that makes them hypocrites are any better; they also sophists, because, although professing the “Faith” they are the fathers and makers of atheists. And why is that? Because the leaders have all placed themselves above the laws they profess to faithfully follow, and lead their gullible flocks to follow suit. Slowly the good laws get twisted around some other way, and before we all notice what happened, you have an entirely different thing, not a religion at all, but just a joke and a sham portrayed by the tyrants and their “SS” section that are instilling fear and ignorance into their “puppets” which blindly follow them, because most are too ignorant to notice that they are being fed more ignorance. And then there are those others who can still wet their appetites and are allowed to still put forth a false appearance of piety, but don’t care one way or the other. Then there are those few that can think for themselves, but are too fearful to do anything, because they are not really convinced of their faith. Why! There is nothing that these false teachers understand about their own religion, and so preach and teach nonsense. So it is any wonder that their flocks are where they are? Is it any wonder that atheists are, mainly, produced from such an environment? So if an atheist claims to have become a convinced atheist because, in addition to science, they use today’s false religion practices to justify and confirm their non-belief, it is only an excuse.

Will you, Derek, make your own laws to get what you like and where you want to be, and so become the measure of all things? To be the measure of all things is to become a complete and most powerful tyrant of yourself, and others also, if they impede you by having a measure of their own.
And what do you like, Derek? Do you like to think at all? And do you do your own thinking, or are you, mainly, directed by others’ likes and dislikes? Do you like the laws of our country, and do they measure up to your measure of them? Do you like to think about having lots of money, do you like to think about having lots of sex, doing drugs, about having a big mansion, about being a movie star, about being important, about being bigger than life? What drives your thinking and your likes? What measures will you take to get them? You must also be a “great” thinker, because I bet that it was all on your own when you figured out how it all began, and how you and everything else got here, right? Any good atheist must, at least, “like to think” and have troubled himself with long and deep reflections and contemplation on the origin of the universe, right? Otherwise how can you be a true philosopher, a “true” atheist? You do “love” “knowing,” as your atheistic wisdom tells you that there is no God or gods, true? Where did you get your ideas? Were you born with the knowledge (wisdom) necessary to not require anyone’s help? Not even a mother’s and father’s help? Who shaped your mind and taught you your fist steps in life? What stops you from killing anyone who happens to differ from you? What do you exactly think that you like? Do you like being an atheist? Where you born an atheist? Are you an expert in any of the physical sciences that an atheist quotes when implying that there are no deities and all religion is false, since religion is to believe in deities, which science, supposedly, has proven that they do not exist? Derek, are you taking their word that God does not exist? Because if you are not an expert in all those disciplines that are used as justification that no God exists, then my dear Derek you are not a faithful atheist, as you are relying on “faith” in believing someone else for something you do not have first-hand knowledge on.

Derek, just bear with just a little bit longer and I will conclude. Now to the term “philosophy” and its proper and just definition And It’s not your what you “like to think,” get it? Here we have a sort of truth and a modern definition that comes close to the intended meaning of the original thinkers that can actually think, unlike the self-acclaimed “intellectuals” and sophists of today: Philosophy is the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, the study of ideas about knowledge, truth, the nature and meaning of life, adding; philosophy is a discipline comprising as its core logic, aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics, and epistemology. Now apart from your “silly” belief of what philosophy is all about, if you have studied Plato, you will note that his works encompass and deal, specifically, with all those preceding terms and definitions; and I did not want to break down those terms further, as you can look them up yourself, and for which you may gain some useful knowledge from them, and therefore, you will, perhaps, look at philosophy for what it is intended, and not to be used for what you, personally, like. PLEASE DO USE THE TERM PHILOSOPHY to express your preferred life style, like being an atheist, or use “philosophy” to express your favorite sexual orientation, or political likes, or professional hobbies, and any and those other things that one may happen to like according to our physical senses and the rewarding and gratification of same. But let me relate to you, what the term philosophy was and is intended to mean, not only to Socrates and Plato, but to anyone that has it inside. Philosophy means “love of wisdom,” and one who dwells on philosophy is a philosopher, or simply put, a “lover of wisdom.” Of course wisdom is only wisdom when it is based on “truth.” So go and find out if I’m telling the truth. In other words…………………………….
So long my dears, I’m through posting on this. Marie, you “Chicken,”as Nietzsche would say of you.”

Funky Town

Frank,

Your posts are excessively verbose. I read your first one and found it quite funny (laughing AT you and not with you.) I’ll venture a guess that you’ve heard the term “ad hominem” before. If not, look it up. And learn to convey your ideas more concisely - you’ll extend your reach.

There is no objective Truth; its pursuit is a squandered effort. Meaning can only be created internally. Enjoy your life while you can and give up the theological and philosophical wanking. It gets you nowhere.

I’ve got to get going so I can enjoy the small pleasure of eating a hamburger (should I feel guilty for this?)

Youstbi

All philosophies are nothing but footnotes to Plato.

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