Darn, I read this post hoping for a quick (<1000 words) summary of the arguments on both sides — instead I got lots of links. Darn. So what do you think — profile, or no?

I am finally coming out of the closet. I work of for TSA. Yes it is a hard admission to make and I above most loath the organization I work for but hey its a paycheck.
Some prefer 10 minutes of screening to make them feel safe during their travel while others think any screening is a violation of privacy and that the chance that they die from a terrorist attack will never happen to them. Personally I think risking our lives is the least we could do to ensure our freedoms. But that’s just me.
As for comments by Sam Harris, he is completely uninformed about the various types of non-Islamic terrorists or the white and black Americans that had converted to Muslim then planned and attempted to carry out terrorist attacks. We are briefed at work about all the Homegrown Terrorists on a daily basis and if the public knew how many nearby terrorists were ferreted out they would be volunteering for pat-downs.
As for children getting screened, TSA has changed their policies for over a year regarding children. They no longer get screening via pat-downs unless an alarm cannot be resolved by any other means. That said, there are plenty of terrorists and nut jobs that have sacrificed their children by strapping bombs to them. But to accommodate the gentile sensibilities of the public we allow children to be the one major hole in our security system.
And sadly, when a terrorist exploits this hole in our system - and they will eventually - many people will loose their and TSA will get the blame for not catching the threat. Catch 22.

This was the first episode of “An American Atheist” that I’ve listened to, and I liked it for the most part.

The segment about Sam Harris leaves me wondering what stupid thing is he going to say next! Let’s not forget that Harris’s wonderful utilitarian moral system apparently gave him the answer that torture is justifiable with conditions that he applies (and somehow thinks would be followed rigorously by political and military authorities using them). He still hasn’t walked back his defense of torture in spite of everything we have learned about the indiscriminate use of waterboarding and other torture methods. And I still keep his so called rebuttal of Chris Hedges claim that he sanctions nuclear bombs on hand from his own hand in “The End Of Faith” here quoted on his blog entry: “Response To Controversy” last year:

“What will we do if an Islamist regime, which grows dewy-eyed at the mere mention of paradise, ever acquires long-range nuclear weaponry? If history is any guide, we will not be sure about where the offending warheads are or what their state of readiness is, and so we will be unable to rely on targeted, conventional weapons to destroy them. In such a situation, the only thing likely to ensure our survival may be a nuclear first strike of our own. Needless to say, this would be an unthinkable crime—as it would kill tens of millions of innocent civilians in a single day—but it may be the only course of action available to us, given what Islamists believe.”

This clown…in his own words…sets up a hypothetical scenario where America is justified in making a nuclear first strike, and then gets bent out of shape because Hedges and just about everyone else, wasn’t impressed by his qualifier:”this would be a crime.”

So, I would say that the reason why leftwing atheists like myself, have become turned off by atheist movements and activism, it’s because the perceived leaders and the prevailing rhetoric matches the religious Neocon spokesmen. I believe this is the main reason why Harris and Hitchens have become big atheist celebrities. Other atheist celebrities, including Dawkins and lesser lights like Stephen Pinker, Penn Gillette and Michael Schermer — who don’t promote U.S. foreign policy, are nevertheless enthusiatic promoters of capitalism — which is picked up by right wing media, i even if they condemn the atheism portion of their writing.

My apologies for writing a much longer comment than I originally intended, but the point I am trying to get to is that atheist activist movements take Western economics and Western values in general as a given, and when they judge organized religions — especially Islam, they make no accounting for the impact on Muslim-majority nations that Western multinational corporations (backed up by U.S. and British naval forces) have had in those societies. Over the last century, the power of fundamentalism has increased in the Muslim World, while secularism has declined. The main reason must have something to do with the impact of Western encroachment creating this anti-western reaction. So, we can’t neatly separate or compartmentalize religion from economic and political issues. People who think like Harris, think Islam is the most toxic form of religion, and getting rid of it is priority one….and then comes ridding the world of Christianity and Judaism.

From my pov, I no longer believe that religious beliefs will disappear; and the growths and declines in religion and secularism have more to do with the mood of the public — specifically, during times of optimism, we have our renaissance, enlightments etc., and during troubled times, we descend back into the times of fundamentalist revivals. It’s just a natural ebb and flow that will never end regardless of how much we learn about ourselves or the Universe from science. So, an atheist on the far left like me, would advocate allying with religious liberals and moderates and fighting for social justice and against war policies, rather than the right wing or libertarian atheist strategy of siding with the power establishment and mocking the dogmas of all religious adherents…liberal or fundamentalist. Once again, my apologies for getting up on my soapbox and likelly over-explaining my viewpoint on atheism and religion.

This one’s for Mike C. of the TSA. This story just got posted today: Muslim Baby Ordered Off Plane For Being On No Fly List And the link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/10/baby-ordered-off-plane-for-being-on-no-fly-list_n_1505648.html?ref=canada&ir=Canada
It doesn’t matter what the policy guide says, we can expect the extreme and the ridiculous to follow, whenever we get everyone afraid to get on a plane with someone who looks like they might be from the Middle East!

I no longer fly…anywhere! I don’t have to fly, so if I’m going on a vacation now, it’s going to be somewhere I can either drive to or take the train. And it’s not because I’m afraid of terrorism or afraid of flying. It’s because of the stupid, irrational over-reaction post-9-11 that is turning us into a police state, and making air travel an ordeal not worth bothering with.

I read all of this. I love PZ but I stand firmly with Sam on this topic. I’ll be interested to know which side you’lll eventually support.

I pretty much categorically reject Sam’s stance on this issue. I think it’s coming from a place of extreme ignorance regarding the privileged position whites in our country occupy. It’s extremely easy for a white man, Sam, to condone profiling, as he will never be targeted. PZ and Schneier, I believe, have a much more solid and practical approach, and doesn’t involve what will in reality amount to racial profiling.

That said, I am excited to read the exchanges, since I think both sides have some decent points. I should further note that I don’t think Sam’s stance is a racist one, but, if implemented, will be practically indistinguishable from a policy formulated by racists.

Also, Sam’s argument comparing the % of terrorists who are Muslims with the % of porn stars who are theoretical physicists was extremely poor, and I am glad PZ pointed this out. I am looking forward to Sam’s response.

I think Sam is tarnishing the atheist community with his stance on profiling, making it less of a safe place for people of color, much in the same way Dawkins has tarnished the atheist community for his brash comments on women’s issues. Dawkins was guilty of not checking his male privilege, and Sam is now guilty of ignorance regarding white privilege. The fact that Harris and Dawkins are probably the two highest profile atheists alive at the moment makes this even more troubling, in my view.

first of, let me just say that this is one of the more level-headed and intelligent discussion threads i’ve seen on the interwebs regarding this issue.
i have posted my own “EPIC takedown” of Sam Harris on my blog, but i won’t bore you by repeating it here.

let me just say that Mike C’s and and ralph m’s comments resonated well with my own reasoning and i thank them for articulately expressing their views.

that said, my bottom line critique of Sam Harris’s blatant endorsement of racial/religious profiling (aside from his obvious ignorance on this topic) is this:

Sam has a super massive BLIND SPOT on the National Security State of America. whether that is intentional or just plain ignorance, Sam only knows.

that is all. keep up the intelligent discussion!

~C

[…] Tyson and Dawkins’s disagree over how to talk about science and religion in popular culture. Myers recently took Harris to task over issues of racial profiling at airports. And I’ve lost track of how many non-believers were sharply critical of Hitchen’s views […]

Ralph M, that story you linked to was an airline issue not a TSA issue. Its nice to know that out of the millions of people that fly every day on the thousands of airplanes that take-off, TSA gets only a fraction of the media attention from a one-sided story. Not that TSA is the best run organization but we are a focus of attention because we have public exposure unlike other branches of the government. I try to keep perspective when I the local police spend most of their resources giving out traffic tickets rather than fighting crime, corporations taking advantage of the public, the secret service getting busted for using prostitution, soldiers doing unethical acts in countries we are supposed to be fighting for, and so on. TSA is always scrutinized and rarely defends itself.

[…] Originally posted on An American Atheist […]